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    CRUCIFIXION OR CRUCI-FICTION

     
     
    CRUCIFIXION OR CRUCI-FICTION ?
     
     
    Chain below is a debate that I had with some very knowledgeable friends on Jesus (aka Isa (ale-salaam)). I have known Robin since my Bradford University days for over 20 years now and he is a devout Catholic.
     
    From: Shehzad Naroo 
     
    Dear Robin
    Just to further Chris's statement there are three aspects

    1. The Quran implicitly tells us that Allah (swt) made it 'appear' that Christ (as) was killed i.e. so as not to disappoint the enemies of Jesus (as) but mainly to grant the wish of Christ (as) which was to return to earth as a follower of the Final Prophet (saw). The New Testament states clearly that Jesus (as) asked the Father (swt) 'to remove this cup (i.e. burden)' and it follows in the next verse that 'God (swt) heard his prayer'. If God (swt) is all seeing and all knowing then why state that 'God (swt) heard his prayer' in this case? Because the prayer was answered. As Muslim we do not concern ourselves with whom was crucified or how God (swt) made it appear tat someone was killed in place of Christ (as). The fact that Christ (as) was not killed allows for his return visit to his disciples before his ascension. By trying to suggest it was Simon or a Roman or even Judas does not matter. As a Muslim we will ask ourselves this question - if we were given the knowledge of who was killed in place of Jesus (as) will it change our belief. Answer of course not we belive the Quran which simply informs us that Allah (swt) made it 'appear' that Christ (as) was killed

    2. There is a saying in Islam that the Jews worship the Law and the Christians worship the messenger Law but Muslim worship the Law Maker. Jews are known for their particular unnecessary attention and making a fuss of minor insignificant things. For example the covenant between Allah (swt) and his Prophet Ibrahim (as) was that male children would be circumcised. Only after that was Ibrahim (as) granted children. In a way Alah (swt) ensured that the lineage was purified thereafter. Muslims will allow a GP or an Imam (priest with correct training) or even a Jewish Rabbi to perform the circumcision. Jews make a big fuss of the event and it has to done in a ritualistic way etc. Most Christians forgot about circumcision since Paul declared it was not necessary even though all the disciples and Jesus (as) had it. Paul was trying to make the message of Christ (as) which was intended for a particular people open to gentiles especially Romans and Greeks. Also to make the religion more palatable to Romans and Greeks the trinity was invented. This is something which is well known in pagan cultures where a king/leader/priest think he is divine but born of an earthly mother and declaring his own father not to be his father but rather to declare his father as the supreme god (Zeus, Jupiter, Baal etc). The virgin birth of Jesus (as) added mystery to Jesus (as) that was not understood but the trinity was a nice way of making it acceptable to non-believers.

    3. Furthermore for Allah (swt) to become Jesus (as) and visit earth is completely unacceptable since it is not befitting for the creation to contain the creator. By suggesting the creation is able to hold the creator is incorrect and suggests limits to God (swt). In the same way that no one can see God because it is not befitting that your visual system can contain even an image of God (swt) - when Moses (as) asked to see God (swt), God (swt) sent his image to a mountainside causing it to inflame. When God (swt) spoke to Prophets He did so via the Arch Angel Gabriel (as) with few exceptions (in which cases a few time a few Prophets were given the ability to dialogue directly with Allah swt - but we are not told how this was done and again it doesn't matter as faith doesn't hinge at that point). Christians, and Jews to a lesser extent, try and make God (swt) into something they can comprehend and try and give Him man-like qualities - Genesis ludicrously suggests that God (swt) needed a rest (!!!!) after 6 days of universe building (clearly this is an attempt by Jewish priests to tell people to keep the Sabbath holy). whereas Muslims are happy knowing they will never understand the complexities of God (swt) but nonetheless try and get close to Him by following the examples of the Prophets (as) and the Prophet of this era is Prophet Muhammed (saw).

    Robin (I hope you don't take this personally but) it really saddens me when someone of black descent - whose African forefathers were most likely Muslims but had the Islam beat out of them by European slave masters and then they were indoctrinated with Christianity (to supposedly civilise them!!!) and yet were still treated as lesser citizens (even in church!!) - buries his head in the sand that is Christianity. You are a clever man, you have reasoning, take your head out of the sand (as Chris said - don't view things through Christian glasses) and apply logic that will lead you to the truth (inshallah).

    Best wishes
    Shehzad.



    At 01:21 28/02/2007 -0500, Chris Aceto wrote:

    Well there in lies the summation of the verse in the koran "you have your
    way and I have mine"

    Regarding the limitations of God;  In the old testtement, you could easily
    present the evidence that all readers of the book to whom it was presented
    (Jews) never thought  of God this way. They thought God was limitless, but
    what he (God) himself reveled about himself never indicated that he is
    anything other then something OTHER then a human being. In other words, God
    claimed to be majestic, the creator etc ( use any of the 99 names of allah
    here)  The christian understanding of CHrist being God only is found in
    their book where the reader must "allude" to that. It is never emphatically
    pointed out. In other words, Christ never says I am allah, your creator and
    the creator is me. It is an obligation of the messengers of God in  all of
    the monotheistic traditions to clearly spell out to the always doubting
    public WHO EXACTLY they are and what exactly is their role. Therefore, it
    would be incumbant on CHrist to make the explicit claim that he is the
    creator of the worlds and that eternal life is only atainable with his blood
    sacrifice.  That stuff is not explicit in any way in their scriptures.
    However, one could make an argument for that if he ASSUMES that already
    going into the reading. If, however, he is not under that sassumption going
    in, then he would be very hard pressed to draw that conclusion


    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Khan, Khalid"
    To: "Chris Aceto"
    Cc: "Shehzad A. Naroo"
    Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:14 PM
    Subject: FW: Interesting Isa Ale-Islam (Jesus Christ)


    f.y.i

    -----Original Message-----
    From: RobinReid

    Sent: 28 February 2007 00:14
    To: Khan, Khalid
    Subject: Re: Interesting Isa Ale-Islam (Jesus Christ)

    I guess, in summary, what Chris is saying below is that one believes what
    one believes, which is fair enough. I didn't understand the God and man bit
    though. True, man is not God but to suggest that God cannot become man
    implies limitation of an infinite being. In the Old Testament, angels were
    forever becoming incarnate (e.g. the three messengers to Abraham) so I have
    no problem in believing that God himself also chose to become a man like us
    in all ways but sin. And he would have suffered the same temptations, the
    same stresses and strains of daily life as we all do today... But, I suppose
    to believe that would automatically make you a Christian.

    Is this the chap I met when I visited you in Maine? We played pool together
    (and had another religious debate - something about Adam and Eve but can't
    remember exactly what).

    Cheers.

        Robin

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Khan, Khalid"
    To: RobinReid
    Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 11:34 PM
    Subject: FW: Interesting Isa Ale-Islam (Jesus Christ)


    Hi Robin,

    I sent you're query to a good friend of mine from Maine, Chris Aceto, who
    reverted to Islam many years ago - here are his thoughts.  (Btw.. Do a
    google search on his name and you'll see that he's a famous Body Builder
    himself and trainer)

    Regards,

    Khalid

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Chris Aceto

    Sent: 27 February 2007 20:36
    To: Khan, Khalid
    Subject: Re: Interesting

    salamu aalikum

    My understanding of Isalm's view of Christ was that he was neither killed
    nor crucified. That is, really, enough. Your friend is looking at what islam
    says thru christian glasses which, in this case, his point is well taken. i
    think to understand and appreciate the islamic view, you have to look at it
    thru islamic glasses. When you put islamic glasses on, you already know that
    a man is not God and  God is not a man. With that, it becomes clearer that
    the idea of the crucifiction may not be accurate as the understanding of
    what god is and what god is not is also inaccurate...

    chris


    ----- Original Message ----
    From: "Khan, Khalid"

    To: "Chris Aceto"
    Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 3:22 PM
    Subject: FW: Interesting


    What are your thoughts on this discussion please Chris ?? I have known Robin
    from my University days for over 20 years now and he is a devout Catholic -
    any advice would be much appreciated.

    Wasalaam,

    Khalid

    -----Original Message-----
    From: RobinReid

    Sent: 27 February 2007 19:24
    To: Khan, Khalid
    Subject: Re: Interesting

    Funnily enough, I was reading about the various (Muslim) beliefs about Jesus
    (Isa) over the weekend after my annual viewing of The Passion of The Christ.
    Some say that Simon of Cyrene was accidentally crucified by the Romans
    instead of Jesus. Supposedly, there is a doctrine that God made someone look
    like Jesus, either to punish an enemy or by selecting a volunteer. There is
    another doctrine that Christ was in fact crucified but passed out and was
    taken down before he actually died. Both seem extraordinarily fallacious to
    me. In the first, what I don't understand is how thick the Romans would have
    to be to select someone from the crowd and mistake him for a condemned man
    who had already been beaten almost to death. Simon was with his family and
    would have been clean; Jesus had been flogged countless times, crowned with
    thorns, punched and generally battered. I don't think this doctrine holds
    water. The other doctrine that he was crucified but didn't die on the cross
    is also refuted by the fact that he stabbed with a lance precisely to make
    sure he was dead before being allowed to be taken down. And blood and then
    water flowed from his side.

    I couldn't access that link, btw.

        Robin

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Khan, Khalid"
    To: robinreid
    Cc: "Sherwood, Garry N"
    Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 11:37 AM
    Subject: FW: Interesting


    Hmmm ... holds true to Islamic teachings as expected, since Jesus was
    never crucified, but will return to fight the anti-christ.

    According to the beliefs of the Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jamaa'ah (i.e.
    "Orthodox" Sunnis), Jesus, peace be upon him, was raised to heaven
    alive, and his return to earth will be one of the signs that the Day of
    Judgment is approaching. These beliefs are not based on whims or
    guesswork, but are narrated to us through authentic hadeeths
    (sayings/traditions) of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.
    "He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture
    and hath appointed me a Prophet, And hath made me blessed wheresoever I
    may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I
    remain alive, And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and
    hath not made me arrogant, unblest. Peace on me the day I was born, and
    the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! Such was Jesus, son
    of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they
    doubt." (The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, translated by M. M.
    Pickthall, Surah 19 - Maryam, Verses 30-34)

    ______________________________________________
    From: Sherwood, Garry N
    Sent: 27 February 2007 11:18
    To: Khan, Khalid
    Subject: Interesting

    http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/picture_gallery/0,,70141-1253410,00.html

    Titanic director James Cameron has caused controversy by claiming this is Jesus' burial box - and that Christ was never resurrected.  It is one of 10 ossuaries discovered in a Jerusalem cave in 1980 which may have held the bones of Jesus, his wife Mary Magdalene, and possibly a son.

     

     

    Life after Death / The Angel of death

     

    LIFE AFTER DEATH / THE ANGEL OF DEATH

    My discussions with a devout Catholic friend regarding Life after death experiences and the Islamic view on the topic. He was amazed how closely Islamic teachings related to peoples actual experiences.

    Subject: Life after Death / The Angel of death

    Further to this excellent article, I read that you are interested in people who have experienced a deathbed phenomenon - Here are a some personal experiences, and views from the Islamic perspective which you may/may not be aware of - it's amazing how closely peoples experiences tie in with Islamic teachings on this matter. Although there are many many verses in the Holy Qur'an that talk about death and life-after death, I will open with a pertinent verse from the Holy Qu'ran, since Muslims believe that this life is simply a test and that death is NOT the end but the beginning (The first sentence of this verse of the Holy Qur'an is read whenever a Muslim hears of the death of another person, In arabic "Ina Lilahee wa Ina Ilahee Rajeoon").

    Surah/Chapter 3 - Al-Imran, verse 185

    "Every Soal shall taste death. And only on the day of Resurrection shall you be paid your wages in full. And whoever is removed from the Fire and admitted to Paradise, he indeed is successful. The Life of this World is only the enjoyment of deception (a deceiving thing)"

    Visit http://www.whyislamsc.org/ - and download free copy of quran by clicking on link at bottom of page - small .exe file installs on any PC. perform search on DEATH to find the other refs.

    My first experience was when I was by my father's bedside about 30mins before he passed away (JAN 1995).

    My father had suffered from a serious stoke which consequently caused him to become bedbound and dependant on family for day-to-day activities. The whole family were there reciting verses of the Holy Qur'an. My father's breathing was becoming steadily faster and louder as it appeared he was about to leave this World. His eyes, however, were wide open and he appeared to gazing at something directly in front of his face. There seemed to be a strange chill in the small room and my father appeared to be saddened by something as I looked closely at his facial expression (he could not speak for about 2years prior to this because of the stroke he had suffered). A short time later, he started to look paler and paler as his life ebbed away.

    My second experience was when my Mother passed away peacefully (APRIL 1996).

    Although I was not present at the actual moment of death, my mother passed away very peacefully in her sleep. Basically she had been ill earlier in the day and decided to go to bed early. In the evening of that fateful day she asked my wife, Asiya, to bring a glass of water up since she needed to take some tablets. During the time that my wife came downstairs to when she returned to my mother's bedside - She had passed away very peacefully.

    My third experience was when my Sister passed away peacefully (JUNE 2000).

    She had suffered from a brain haemorrhage and had been on a life support machine for almost 1 week. We all sat by her bedside as the doctors declared that she may never recover from her vegetative state. We were again reciting verses from the Qur'an and didn't know how long she would remain in this condition and it was very worrying for us all. I could see from the expression on her face that she was longing for something. It's only when my niece turned up with some water called ZAM ZAM (which came from Mecca and is considered very pure and beneficial) that my sisters expression changed. My niece placed some water on her fingertips and stoked them across her lips (although she couldn't drink). My sisters seemed at peace and slight smile seemed to show. As she passed away.. I seemed to experience a hazy image with the side of my eye raising away from her body.

    The amazing thing is that approx 2 months after my father passed away ALLAH blessed us with our son, Qasim… And approx 2 months after my Mother passed away, ALLAH blessed us with a daughter, AMINA.

    Muslims believe that when a person is about to pass away, the Angel of Death comes and questions the person.. "Who is your Lord, who is your prophet and did you perform the obligatory prayers". If the person had lead a good life his soul will be extracted peacefully , but for evil/wicked people this will be a very difficult time. The soul goes to a Limbo place (called Al-Barzakh) and remains there until the day of resurrection where upon everyone from Adam is questioned and God decides who will goto heaven and who will go to hell. Good souls are at peace during this time and may even visit their living relatives as Ghosts (Allah knows best). Evil Souls, however, will be punished and in a vile state until the day of reckoning.

    On a closing note, when a Muslim passes away, their body is taken to the Masjid and a special prayer (called Janazah prayer) is performed. After the prayer people goto the coffin, in which the shrouded body's face may be seen, to pay their last respects to family members and see the face. This also reminds people that this is their final destination and puts life in perspective.

    I hope that my experiences and Islamic refs have been useful in some small way for your research.

     

    The “Advice” of Imam al-Haddad or al-Ba’iyya

    Imam ‘Abd Allah b. ‘Alawi Al-Haddad t  1132 A.H
      بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
     
    As the title suggests, the “Advice” of Imam al-Haddad is a poem containing advice for the spiritual wayfarer seeking to reach Allah.  It is one of a number of similar poems of advice which Imam al-Haddad wrote and is also called al-Ba’iyya, as each verse ends with the Arabic letter ba’. Al-Habib Ahmad ibn Zayn al-Habashi, author of the commentary on the poem to which we will refer, described it as being amongst the best, most beneficial and most comprehensive of the Imam’s advices.
     
     
    The Author
     
    Imam al-Habib Abdullah ibn `Alawi al-Haddad “the Pillar of Guidance” was born in Subayr near the city of Tarim in the Hadramawt Valley in the year 1044 Hijri. He went blind when he was still young but Allah blessed him with the light of inner sight. He sought knowledge from an early age from amongst other Shaykhs al-Habib `Umar ibn `Adburrahman al-`Attas and by the time he was about thirty years of age he was widely regarded as being the foremost scholar and saint of his time, and subsequently as the renewer of the 12th Islamic Century. His da’wa, his teachings in the form of poetry and prose, and his invocations spread far and wide during his lifetime and continue to spread to this day.  He died in 1132 and was buried in the Zanbal Graveyard in Tarim.  
          
    The following is a rough translation of the poem. The emphasis has been placed more on conveying the meaning than on linguistic accuracy:
     
    1. My advice to you, o distinguished and respectful one,
    If you wish to attain high stations
     
    2. And if you wish to surpass others and reach the highest levels
    With ease and attain your goal and desire..
     
    3.  Then have taqwa of Allah, whose mercy is hoped for,
    The One, the Unique, the Reliever of difficulties
     
    4.  Adhere to His obligations and avoid His prohibitions
    And fill your nights and days with righteous works
     
    5.  Bring to your heart a fear which does not part from it,
    A fear of its Lord and with it a similar feeling of hope
     
    6.  And strive to adorn the heart with sincerity
    And know that ostentation[1] will lead to your destruction
     
    7.  And purify your heart from all vices and do not
    Follow the paths of the corrupt and questionable people
     
    8.  And prevent your tongue from harming any one
    Of Allah’s servants and from talebearing and lying
     
    9.  Be dignified and humbled (in front of Allah) and be not absorbed
    In distractions, joking, merriment and play
     
    10. And free your heart from deceit and envy
    And avoid arrogance, o poor soul, and vanity
     
    11. And be content with humility because truly it is the character-trait
    Of the righteous so follow them and you will be saved from the heart’s sicknesses
     
    12. And beware! Beware of the ignorant one’s saying “I”[2]
    And “You are below me in merit and degree.”
     
    13. For people have failed and did not seek to obtain
    Noble character and (instead) were content with saying “my father was so-and-so”
     
    14. Go against your lower self and recognise it as an enemy
    Ignore its whims and what it wants and you will succeed
     
    15. And if it calls you to what it wants through its desire
    Clarify to it that punishment and humiliation will be the outcome
     
    16. Renounce with your heart an abode which has deceived
    Many people, who saw it as the ultimate goal
     
    17. They competed over it and gave it their bodies
    And souls – O Allah! How amazing that it is!
     
    18. Given that it is worthless and does not weigh
    With Allah the wing (of a gnat),[3] so foolish is the one who covets it!
     
    19. Take only what you need from this dunya and use it
    While earnestly striving to reach your Lord and seek His reward
     
    20. Know that the one who buys his earthly life
    At the price of an afterlife of everlasting bliss will be deprived
     
    21. And if you have more than enough then give to the needy
    And your Lord will pour His provision upon you, so answer His call
     
    22. And if you are tested with poverty be content and sufficed
    With Allah your Lord, hope for His bounty and wait patiently
     
    23. And if you are removed from worldly means then act with certainty
    And (act) with knowledge if your state is involvement with these means
     
    24. Recite the Qur’an with a present and fearful heart
    Continuously and do not become distracted or allow your mind to wander
     
    25. Because in it are both guidance and knowledge
    And light and openings, by which I mean the lifting of veils
     
    26. Constantly remember your Lord and never leave His remembrance
    Because remembrance is the Sultan of righteous works
     
    27. And rise when the heedless are sleeping and strive
    And eat moderately and do not neglect adab[4]
     
    28. Your parents have rights which are fulfilled by
    Those who fear Allah, and likewise your relatives
     
    29. And your neighbours and Companions - do not forget their rights
    And choose only the company of the righteous
     
    30. Interact with people with noble character and do not
    Rebuke anyone and do not find fault with them
     
    31. Fulfil their rights and do not demand yours from them and give them sincere advice[5]
    And constantly call them to fulfil the rights of Allah
     
    32. Beware of the company of evil and foolish people
    And the envious and those who cause trouble
     
    33. In all situations be steadfast[6] and know that at first
    It is bitter but later it becomes sweet like honey
     
    34. O Lord! You are my utmost desire and my reliance,
    You are my hope in this life and the next
     
    35. So forgive and pardon a poor slave who has no deeds
    That are righteous and has only gathered sins
     
    36. He is, however, repentant of what he has done
    And has come to You acknowledging his sins, fearing Your wrath.
     
    37. If You forgive him it is from Your grace O Eternally Besought[7]
    So be generous to me my Lord and remove my fear
     
    38. And then send prayers on the Guide Sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم  and his descendants
    As long as rain falls from the clouds
     
    39. And as long as the dove sings on its branch
    And as long as the branches sway on the dunes.


    [1] Riya’, or showing off in good works
    [2] ie “I am such and such, I am so and so”
    [3] As in the hadith related by al-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah on the authority of Sahl ibn.Sa`d : “If the Dunya was equal in Allah’s sight to the wing of a gnat He would not have given a single disbeliever a drink of water from it”
    [4] Correct behaviour or in this case Prophetic etiquette
    [5] Nasiha
    [6] Have sabr
    [7] Samad, the Eternally Besought, the One to whom people turn for the fulfillment of their needs